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Date:         Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:13:51 EDT
Reply-To:     Discussion of Topics for Soccer Referees <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       Discussion of Topics for Soccer Referees <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Michael Cotleur <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Booted in the Groin.  SFP?
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Gentlemen: I must intervene here. Chris Kerr, a fellow New Zealander, jumped in below . . . then Sean O'Brien, then Jack Barry. First, I feel in need of redemption - dunno about you, but the discussion on offside and deliberate handling left me feeling like Linda Blair in "The Exorcist." Sure glad to see Peter (nae Arlo) Guthrie give Jim Allen's earlier, definitive word on this - it was an interesting debate, while it lasted! Back to the subject. My best and strongest training on Misconduct comes from Jim Allen and Wayne Wray. One lesson absorbed is: - careless: DFK - reckless: and Caution - unnecessary force: RED! So, fellow New Zealander (didn't Rod Pelosi, on this very SOCREF site, so elevate us Irishmen to said exalted status?) Jack, we don't need intent, let alone malicious. As originally described, clearly a PK. YHTBT, to determine whether Caution or Ejection as well. Hard to see how there was No misconduct, as described. Regards, Michael "All-Black" Cotleur (exc. NF, where I'm more a bumblebee, as long as Jim Gordon doesn't see me!) P.S. Jack - got any responses from the Holy Ghost (i.e., West Coast) re our new boss' requst for training/retention of new refs? Jack Barry: There need not be a malicious intent, to issue a Red Card for SFP, right? The differentiation between Red and Yellow, in my mind, is the amount of force, the liklihood of the act being injurious, the "deliberate",willfull disregard for the health/safety of the opponent. The "Red-Carded" player setup himself right in front of the keeper, who had only come out one step, with his arms upreaching, for the incoming ball. This play was more "static" than dynamic, in its totality. The actions of both keeper and attacker were pre-meditated and "deliberate". Feeling that all the consequences should have been, and likely were, known to the attacker, I saw the fast pivoting swinging leg of the attacker as a "message" to the keeper to be cautious in going up/out for the ball.. I saw the attacker as trying to define all the space within his legswing range, right in the middle of the Goal Area, as HIS territory... Players are fonding of saying, after being whistled for a foul: "But Ref, I got all ball"... In this case, it was me who said this to the attacker, with the object noun being in the "plural". The attacker rejoined with "But my back was to the keeper, all the while, until I pivoted and swung around, by which time it was too late.".. I replied "You knew where you had set your self up, when you did so, and held that position for the 6 secs until the shot came in, so you were fully aware of his presence...." It was the pre-meditatedness of the action, and its inherent recklessness, that defined it to me as SFP. -----Original Message----- From: Discussion of Topics for Soccer Referees [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of O'Brien, Sean P. Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 8:06 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Booted in the Groin! SFP? Chris, I disagree with your statement that no card was needed. I don't think it should have been a red card, but certainly a yellow card for kicking another player. I think you may have misread the original post. The keeper wasn't going down to reach the ball he went UP to get it. The player was volleying where he thought the ball would be and the keeper ended up taking one in the groin. There is no doubt that it's kicking and the player should be cautioned. >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris Kerr [SMTP:[log in to unmask]] >Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 11:46 PM >To: >Subject: Re: Booted in the Groin! SFP? > <snipped for brevity> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- >----- >Reply: > >one yard line?? three yard line?? Where are they marked on a football >pitch? > >no card needed as there was "NO MALICIOUS intent". It seems from the way >you >describe it, its an accident as to what occurred, the players intention >was >to kick the ball not the keeper. It could be deemed SFP if the keeper was >already on the ground and the attacker deliberately kicked him in the nuts >while going for the ball. >Playing Devils Advocate: Could you argue Dangerous play against the Keeper >for being down and putting himself in a dangerous position and thus >depriving the attacking team of a goal scoring opportunity? (I couldnt >resist putting that in since I am arguing against that in another thread >hahaha) >I would give just a free-kick against the attacker for clumsy play. > >Chris Kerr >New Zealand _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at

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