Date:         Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:48:54 -0600
Reply-To:     Discussion of Topics for Soccer Referees
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Sender:       Discussion of Topics for Soccer Referees
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From:         Bill Liedtke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Caution to both player and coach (WAS Enforcing 10 yards0
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As you will note, I did not mention cards in my original post since
different sanctioning bodies have different rules regarding bench personnel.
I have had unsophisticated teacher/coaches in HS games give improper
instructions but have handled it with strong statements and without cards to
date due tot he lack of soccer sophistication of the coach.

In the FRD case with younger children, as I reflect, I can envision either a
warning or written caution for the coach (sans card as you note) depending
on my read of the coach. First time offence, I cannot see excusing him from
the match - too strident a response.  I also cannot see carding a young
player following orders.

This is all thought in the abstract, and perhaps knowing the context of the
match is a key missing ingredient.

Bill Liedtke
OKC OK 07

-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion of Topics for Soccer Referees
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Patrick Duffy
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Caution to both player and coach (WAS Enforcing 10 yards0


This is an occasion to remember that we do not give cards to coaches (or
other bench personnel.)  Only players or substitutes can commit
misconduct and thereby earn themselves a card. Coaches are required to
conduct themselves in a responsible manner.  If they do not, you excuse
them for the rest of the day.  You might warn a coach to change his
behavior, when, for example, frustration is approaching what would be
dissent if a player were doing it.  That's your decision as part of how
you control the game.  Leagues, particularly youth leagues, will
typically treat a warning to a coach as a caution and a dismissal as a
send off for their disciplinary purposes.  But that part is not really
our business.  We're simply reporting what we did in the spaces on the
form they provide.

IMHO, this coach is not conducting himself in a responsible manner.  He
is telling children to cheat, loudly and publicly.  That is not what a
responsible adult does.  Goodbye.  YMMV.

Patrick Duffy

-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion of Topics for Soccer Referees
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ed Marco
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:50 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Caution to both player and coach (WAS Enforcing 10 yards0

Bill, I wouldn't go as far as a caution/warning to a coach for this type
of
instruction to his players. Deal with the players. If the player tries
to
show you up by defying your instructions or the Laws then that is an
easy
caution. It's not like this coach instructed his player to go out and
break
his opponents leg. If you manage the players correctly you should have
no
problem with players giving and getting at least 10 yards. You can deal
with
the coach when you are closer by. Don't become the show.
Ed Marco




> When you hear a coach instruct a player to commit misconduct, and the
player
> complies - how do you analyze whether to sanction both coach and
player. or
> one or the other?  I'm sitting here thinking it may just depend on the
> situation - and admittedly I'm not looking at this from a "letter of
the
> law" standpoint so much as a game management analysis.  In a younger
youth
> game with the FRD example, maybe only the coach gets a caution - older
youth
> players maybe just the player with a comment that he can thank his
coach for
> it.  Repeated occurences would get both player and coach a caution and
if
> the misconduct is VC or SFP, they both go.
>
> Anyone have more elaborate rules of thumb?
>
> Bill Liedtke
> OKC OK 07
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Topics for Soccer Referees
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Jim Gordon
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:05 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Enforcing 10 yards
>
>
> The comment was made:
>> ... in a game ... where players are supposed to KNOW
>> that they must be back or quickly moving in that direction
>> and they aren't AND the kicker is looking at them and
>> waiting for me to do something,  I usually use a wave
>> of the hand and voice like 'green, back up'.
>
> Too late and not enough.  What was the rest of the defense doing while
the
> one defender was blocking the FK?
> The term Free Kick is supposed to mean "free", not delayed or blocked
or
> hindered or limited.
>
> There was a further comment
>> ... u13 premier level game ... a foul against red ... .
>> As red starts to retreat, the COACH begins screaming at
>> one of his players to 'get in front of the ball and
>> make him move you back'.  ... THIS specific instance
>> resulted in a whistle to stop everything for sure;
>> an 'educational experience'
>
> A missed opportunity.  I wouldn't have whistled immediately, although
I
> WOULD eventually have held up this restart.  I'd have told the coach,
"If
> that player moves too close, you're going to get your second caution."
> (First for USB -- not behaving in a responsible manner and interfering
in
> the game; Second also for USB -- inciting player to commit an
infraction;
> The send-off might stick when he appealed, although I admit it could
be
> argued that it was all one offense.)  The defender would benefit from
the
> explanation to everyone at the field that, as was written,
>> ... one of the biggest 'myths of the game'
>> is that 'they have to ask for their 10' ...
>
> Ten yards IS a right, and FRD IS misconduct (if it's intentional,
IMO).
>
> Regards,
> Jim Gordon