Date:Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:59:50 +0000
Reply-To:Discussion of Topics for Soccer Referees
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Sender:Discussion of Topics for Soccer Referees
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From:Gary Voshol <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:Re: What's the official reason for the disqualification?
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Let's not confuse "more serious offense" with "what happened first".
I think this whole situation is an anomoly caused by the NFHS soft-red rule, compounded by their substitution mechanics.
I don't know NFHS rules very well, but is showing the card a required part of the cautioning and sending off policy? In a FIFA game, if a ref for some reason does not have cards, the player is still cautioned or sent off by the words of the referee. The card's function is only to display that decision to others. Does that apply in NFHS?
A player can only be sent off once per game. The reason for that send-off is determined, and whether they can sub in a replacement (under NFHS rules) is determined by the reason. Whatever the sent-off player does after being sent off is only added material for the report.
Gary Voshol
USSF 8, Mich.
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Guynes" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, November 1, 2010 8:42:11 AM
Subject: Re: What's the official reason for the disqualification?
I can accept the idea that the "soft red stands."
But... just for the sake of argument...
Cannot any decision be changed right up until play is restarted?
Could not "punish the more serious offense" still be in play here?
William Guynes
On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 11:47 PM, Ed Marco <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Wait a minute. You show a second caution to a player and eject/ disqualify
> him for receiving a second caution in the same game. The ejected/
> disqualified player is not bench personnel nor a bench player. He is now a
> non participant and is only substituted for because the rules say he can be
> subbed. You can't show a red card and eject/ disqualify him twice in one
> game. You can, however, report his conduct after being disqualified to
> whomever you report to.
>
> Ed Marco
>
> On Oct 30, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Morten Mikkelsen <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Gil, there's no section of the NFHS rule book that says that a player
> sent
> > off for VC immediately becomes "bench personnel". Rather, it's simply a
> > consequence of the sequence of events.
> >
> > Player with a yellow card is cautioned for a 2nd time. As soon as this
> > happens, even if not done exactly according to the book (displaying the
> > yellow and red card simultaneously, not sequentially as I incorrectly did
> > it), the player is 'considered' as being out of the game and being a
> bench
> > player for which his/her team can substitute. Although followed almost
> > immediately by the VC, the VC is committed by a 'bench player' and all we
> > can do, within the rules we are given, is disqualify the "bench player",
> his
> > team does not play short, file the report and let the proper authorities
> > deal with the miscreant.
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Gil Weber <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >> Please cite the specific section of the NFHS rule book that says the
> >> player sent off for violent conduct as described (striking the referee)
> >> immediately becomes "bench personnel" upon the dismissal, and the team
> >> does not play short. I find this very hard to believe. But then, it is
> >> high school, and I would appreciate being made aware of this play
> >> ruling if it is the case.
> >>
> >> Gil
> >>
> >>
> >> On Saturday 30 October 2010 7:34:34 pm Morten Mikkelsen wrote:
> >>> Thanks Stephen, that's exactly what our rules interpreter told me
> >>> when he called me back this morning - as soon as the second yellow
> >>> card is displayed (with or without the red), he is a bench player. He
> >>> is done for the game and at least the next game either way, but his
> >>> team does not play short. In this particular game, there was no
> >>> additional score, so the fact that his team played short for 3:55
> >>> didn't matter.
> >>>
> >>> Lesson learned.
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Stephen Mahan <[log in to unmask]>
> >> wrote:
> >>>> NFHS rules, player is being shown 2nd yellow card and during this
> >>>> process
> >>>>
> >>>>> (but before being show red and yellow together to indicated a
> >>>>> 'soft red'), the player attempts to slap the yellow card out of
> >>>>> the hand of the official
> >>>>> and makes contact with the yellow card. The official then shows a
> >>>>> 'hard red'
> >>>>> (red card only) and the player is disqualified from the game and
> >>>>> the team plays short.
> >>>>
> >>>> What is the official reason for the disqualification?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Taunting?
> >>>>
> >>>>> Violent conduct?
> >>>>> Using an offensive, insulting or abusive gesture?
> >>>>> Something else?
> >>>>
> >>>> First, the disqualification is for violent conduct (striking),
> >>>> which also constitutes referee assault.
> >>>> Include full details in your report to the state association. He
> >>>> won't play for a while.
> >>>>
> >>>> Second, you've made a procedural error in your assumptions. After
> >>>> the decision to award the second caution,
> >>>> the player becomes bench personnel and a substitute is allowed to
> >>>> enter. The action resulting in
> >>>> his disqualification occurs *after* his transition to bench
> >>>> personnel, so he's disqualified *from the bench*
> >>>> and his team plays at full strength. This ruling per FHSAA office
> >>>> (Florida), your state may vary.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, this means that the player gets a time interval between the
> >>>> issuing of the second caution and his departure from
> >>>> the field where he can engage in further misconduct without causing
> >>>> his team to play shorthanded.
> >>>>
> >>>> Stephen Mahan
> >>>> Panama City, Florida
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Morten Mikkelsen
> > 610-248-5655
>
